Electric Vehicles

Friday, November 10, 2006

Who believes GM is serious about electric vehicles?

I hope we get some interesting comments.
I worked for GM for 5 years on the EV1 program. I was there from late 1990 to mid-1996 when I left GM. GM was perplexed between what the Legal people were fighting and the what the technology people were doing. Ultimately the legal people won and the EV1 disappeared. The technical people were not blame free and in part sealed their own destiny because they spent such an extreme amount of money, much was through mismanagement by the leadership. But now Bob Lutz is at it again. Toyota and Honda have embarassed GM in the automotive business with its total lack of regard for the environmental issues facing us. EV's are a disruptive technology and too difficult for GM to handle. So what is Lutz doing? I don't know but I suspect it is all a sham to look good while not doing anything serious. After they killed the ZEV mandates in California, they promised fuel cells and the hydrogen economy were just around the corner. Hydrogen is still a potential, but its future remains very foggy. Most estimates are 10, 20 or 30 years away and many inventions are still needed. How do you generate hydrogen cost effectively? how do you store it (and not lose it) both in vehicles and in storage yards, and at fueling stations, how do you distribute it, and how do you dispense it. What happens to a 10,000 psi storage tank 10 years down the road, particularly when some untrained mechanic starts to take things apart while smoking?
All these issues can be addressed but they all take time and money to do. And who's money will it be? YOURS, you can bet on it.
Then GM jumped on the ethanol, flex fuel vehicle bandwagon. Until cellulosic processes are developed the cost will be too high and unless E85 is 25% cheaper than gas, no one will buy it because it does not pay for the inconvenience of refilling 25% more often. And why in the hell, do the OEM's who sell flex fuel get these qualified as alternative fuel vehicles when almost all are refueled with straight gas? They should be awarded credits not based on the number sold, but on the number of gallons of ethanol put in the vehicles. Same way for flex-fuel vehicles counting as AFV's for fleet's EPACT requirements. Count them if they actually buy and burn E85, but but if a fleets buys 3% E85 and 97% gas, then give them 0.03 credits, not full credit. And tell me why, an electric Low Speed Vehicle which replaces a gasoline vehicle does not count as a AFV? It doesn't. I personally believe the ethanol issue will backfire for GM and others supporting it. And who is going to pay for this? YOU ARE!
But now back to GM's announcement of electrifying its entire fleet of vehicles in the future. They finally realized that fuel cell cars are electric vehicles and the same drive technology works for both. I am dying to see what technology they include for charging. Will they go back to the Hughes inductive charging or use conductive charging? Will they put the charger on-board the car (they should, absolutely!) or will they try to scream wolf again and leave it to the electric utilities' mission to invest in the infrastructure. This failed before and will probably fail again.
I don't think Lutz understand the technology very well. If Li batteries are used and they must be, the high power cells being developed for hybrids are perfect for an EV. Vehicles need peak power to accelerate and that is the same power level that a hybrid requires. The Li batteries are now getting more powerful and still holding the high energy levels required for an EV. GM may over analyze the situation and try something more expensive and ultimately more complex by adding ultra capacitors. But right now Lutz is saying the high energy cells are about 5 years off. Didn't GM say they would be building a 1,000,000 fuel cell vehicles by 2010?
So what will they show in LA next month? The easiest solution is to take a fuel cell Equinox and put in a battery pack. Sure it will run, but then all the excuses will be said about how far off it really is and why it will not meet the needs of all American drivers for years to come. Now, GM is saying they will show a series hybrid electric at Detroit Auto Show in Hanuary. Something about a small diesel generator ICE to charge the batteries so you can drive your 300-400 miles. Work the math and it will say the series engine needs to be able to provide all the energy when the pack gets low. This is all too confusing to a company that builds big V8's and all you have to do is fill it with gas and they know how to do that!
It will be interesting to watch this unfold. What I want to watch is what Mitsubishi and Subaru will show this year. Both have very serious programs going on in Japan to produce and demonstrate full electric vehicles. Both showed vehicles last year at both autoshows and I think they were at EVS23 this year.
Let me know your thoughts on this.
Richard M.
Update Dec. 4, 2006 GM has done their announcement in LA. Who is impressed?
This is a good news, bad news story. For EV people, this is great news. GM coming back to this market with a plug-in hybrid brings credibility to the EV market, which they helped kill. This is particularly good news for the battery people who need a large volume customer to sell to. Bad news is, if GM is not really driven to do it, Toyota will kill them by being faster to market. I believe GM has set-off a horse race for PHEV's. Toyota will bring one to market in one year, mark my words. They are not going to give an inch in this market. GM on the other hand is trying to re-establish itself, but talk will not do it. Only action will do it. GM's strategy is to bring their 2 mode hybrid to production (rear wheel drive, large trucks), then do another one but smaller for front wheel drive (like the Vue). How long will that take? Then, they need to figure out how to get the batteries developed, ready and how much energy to put in. How long will this take? Then they will fight over how to charge their plug-in hybrid. Will it be a conventional 110 VAC outlet plug or will GM still try to push inductive (I hope not). This will be interesting to watch. Nickel metal hydride batteries are just too expensive. Li will be the direction and it will be interesting to see who GM chooses. It will also be interesting to see how Toyota and Japan does this. Panasonic and Toyota are working to together on EV batteries. This makes a very capable and wealthy set of companies who know what they are doing.
I still think GM missed an opportunity to take their fuel cell Equinox and make a real EV out of it. Yes, it could be done quickly and easily, but this flies in the face of California trying to mandate CO2 emissions. GM claims is impossible without making all products much smaller which translate into regulating fuel ecomony, which a State can not do. Around and around it goes. Bottomline: It does not matter what GM does, this is good news for the EV cause. I am excited!

5 Comments:

  • I don't know if GM will do it but I will hope that all manufacturers go to this hybrid design

    I have been saying for a few years now that if we are truly to go to these hydrogen fuel cell vehicles then why haven't I seen the "transitional" vehicle. (maybe I've just been saying it to my friends) Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle use electric motors to run the wheels powered by the electricity that a fuel cell produces. GM has been a big promoter in this area and has shown their electric motor in the wheels hydrogen "pipe dream" concept car for many years now. I was wondering when they would at least use the "realistic" part of their technology in todays vehicles.

    Question: Why have a hybrid that drives the wheels with a steel driveshaft? Batteries can power electric wheels and a generator that makes electric can power those same wheels also.

    Current hybrids are just a compromise on getting better mileage from a gas motor powering steel drive shafts. Regenerative braking uses an electric motor in the wheel that runs backwards to make electric. That was your first clue. GM (and most others) have sat out the hybrid idea until now. These will be the second generation hybrids. And they will be better.

    Now 20-30 miles is what most hybrids effectively drive today if it ran only on electric before needing the gas engine to kick in. Most hybrids use electric at low speeds and gas at higher speeds or when batteries are depleted. Yes, some prius owners have souped up the battery component adding lithium ion to the package, but the real deal is to get XX miles out of a battery and then have an ICE generator(diesel anyone?)make electric. Now you can commute to work each way on electric and still use the car on long trips or if you are in sales or service fleets that need to go more than 40 miles each way.

    By the way the ICE generator can be left running at a stoplight charging the battery or be turned off if it is a short trip.

    all wheel drive with electric motors in the wheels, can move power from an inside to the outside wheels avoiding skids and ice slippage, also useful for the anti rollover technology when you do a quick left right swerve to avoid something. Don't forget regenerative braking. Electric cables must be lighter than driveshafts right? Even if the engine weighs the same and the generator weighs the same as a transmission does, there should be some net weight savings.

    And gimme that nano coated lithium battery from MIT that should get me 50 miles before the engines kicks in. A solar panel on the roof couldn't "run" a car but could charge the battery over 6 hours in a parking lot at work every day.

    I have seen the future and unfortunately it is GM. Hopefully Toyota, Honda and everyone else steps into this concept.

    (how many people don't know that ICE means internal combustion engine-cmon people this is the automotive blog and the word will probably show up a million times in the back posts)

    These should be called Electric/Gas or Electric/Diesel hybrids to make the distinction between the gas/electric of today. If we find a Saudi sized gas field under the Washington monument then the first or second generation hybrids will have no problem running on cheap gas. But we will not have wasted all this time on hydrogen pipe dreams.

    Think about the mileage a 1966 350 cubic inch engine got and then think about the mileage a 2006 350cubic inch engine gets (its like 12mpg vs 20mpg). Then apply that to this "new" Electric/gas hybrid concept where automakers compete on how far the electric battery can take us each way. And also compete on how small and how efficient(and clean) of a motor they can build to run at constant speeds producing enough electric to run the car to 95 miles per hour. Add in switchgrass Ethanol or biodiesel/veggy oil powered? Then carry that out to the oil in the mideast being worth a lot less to the US and world.

    Get on board! Diesel Passat for Sale!
    Mark

    PS By the way, they will make this technology available for SUV's so alot of you will still have something to hate on. "That guzzler SUV only gets 100mpg per gallon, my prius gets 400"

    (Can you tell I'm excited?)

    By Blogger Unknown, at 10:35 AM  

  • Sorry I meant to edit that post from its original on the wired autoblog.

    I like the concept of Electric/gas Hybrids and hope that all automakers embrace them. It is defintiely the transuition to fuel cell vehicles but it is an efficient vehicle propulsion system if hydrogen takes 30 years.

    Can you speak to the concept of a solar panel charging the battery over 6 hours at work?

    Glad I found your Blog!

    By Blogger Unknown, at 10:40 AM  

  • To Mark,
    Yes there are a lot of complications. We definitely need transission technology vehicles. I am concerned about the overall complexity of gas/electric hybrids. I believe that it the automakers took their fuel cell vehicle technology, through away the hydrogen storage and fuel cells and put in a Li battery pack they could have an electric vehicle tomorrow. But they don't want to make it look that easy, do they?
    Solar power is the ideal choice to have complete energy independence. The typical output is about 100W/m^2. So put 2m2 on the roof, take your stored energy (EcoV is 5 kWh) and all you need is 25 continuous hours of sun light. It does something but not a lot.
    The better solution is to set up a collector on the roof of your house or a large building and store the sun energy in a battery pack. Then you have energy to charge your EV, run some of your house, and if any is left over, sell it back to the grid! The electric companies are really pushing this, because if they could tap into your stored energy during peak periods during the day, they can avoid having to build new power generation plants that cost billions.
    If you have further questions, email me directly if you wish

    By Blogger Rich Marks, at 12:33 PM  

  • OK so not my dream of charging up on a 6 to 8 hour workday. But maybe a 1/4 of a battery charged. Then weigh that against the cost of the actual solar panel. Not so feasible. Better spent on full solar for your home that will offset your grid charges at night.

    The recent energy bill (2006) had some rules regarding solar panels and net metering for the grid. Which means your excess output during daytime would spin the meter "backwards" as you power the grid. Or give you credits which would presumable be used during the night.

    Although I don't recall the bill having a time frame for implementation. I will have to see if Florida has gotten on board yet, or if my local utility company is still priomoting their green energy hype, that lets you choose to get your electric from some waste powered generating stations etc.

    Ed Begley is powering his electric car from the solar on his roof. If you haven't seen it yet, he is on HGTV sundays 10PM (eastern)

    Mark

    By Blogger Unknown, at 10:07 AM  

  • To Mark,
    Be sure to read my latest blog about my JRDI Fund.
    I hope GM will deliver, but I do not expect they have the dedication or talent to do it quickly. Toyota is probably working as we speak on the next generation 2009 Prius having a plug in option. Honda is probably doing it too.
    The series hybrid option is an interesting one. EcoV already has it as an option and it runds on a BBQ propane bottle. But we did not do it to run indefintely, but only to extend range in order to keep costs down. It will also provide 110V AC power to run your house lights in an emergency or run EcoV's optional heater and air conditioner if you require it.
    Does every car require running a 100 mph and 300 miles on a fill up to be an automobile? I think not. This where the OEM's have got their brains all messed up.
    I like the concept of wheel motors but they are very difficult to do when you consider the environment in which a wheel runs. It runs on pothole roads, into curbs, on flat tires, into deep water, in snow with salt or sand. It is probably the nastiest enviroment possible. Plus the wheels turn and go up and down with significant force and motion. Not where you want to put a precision part like an electric motor. However, in time these issues will be worked through, I think. Mitsubishi appears to have given up on their wheel motors for their first generation EV coming to Japen.
    The issue of Li batteries is a complicated one. There are first and foremost safety issues. If you use the wrong chemistry, such as a cell phone battery you are creating problems. A123 is building a great, high power battery. EV's need high energy, too. They need to get that with their technology and they are not there today, since they are focusing on hybrids.
    But your point is correct. If any of the OEM's building million dollar fuel cell vehicles for CA just took out the fuel cell and hydrogen storage tanks and put in a battery pack, you would have a battery electric vehicle (BEV). Add a charger and you are ready to market it. But they can't do this with the current cost of gas, it is too cheap. If you are excited today, just wait and see what will happen if gas prices went up and a stayed up! If the public said we want and demand EV's and 100 mpg vehicles! It would happen almost overnight!

    By Blogger Rich Marks, at 8:44 AM  

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